Gay Stuff : Gay Marriage: Doomed for Failure?
With the Supreme Court (finally) deciding to begin considering if same-sex couples have the right to marry, there are all sorts of discussion points that we, the affected group, need to honestly address among ourselves. I’m going to begin a series of discussion articles that you will undoubtedly want to weigh in on, so here is our chance. You should know also that many of your comments will have some bearing on future postings. However, I think we might want to begin with some fundamental talking points just to be sure we all know what it is we’re facing. I’m not talking broad legal ramifications such as institutional discrimination or Jim Crow style separate-but-equal civil union vs. marriage labels here. We all understand those I think, so I am going to bring those topics up in future postings. Also, let’s confine this discussion to men only because…well…it’s basically a men only site.
Here is my concern: I’m concerned that we gay men constantly attempt to bring heterosexual values into a homosexual relationship. And I think because of that, we are constantly setting ourselves up for failure. One of the biggest heterosexual values we set ourselves up with is the idea that we are expected to remain monogamous, mentally and physically. This particular idea has been drummed into our heads from a lifetime of being bombarded with examples of heterosexual values. Media, movies, TV, etc., all have constantly given us the male-female point of view that to remain together, there must be total adherence to only that one other person. How many gay relationships do you know of (either personally or of others) that broke up because one of the two partners became sexually involved with another guy; even if it was a one-time thing? Even now the movies and TV shows that have gay-themed plot lines seem to want to break the couple up because one cheated on the other. The most recent example is Kurt and Blaine from “Glee”. (I’m still hopeful that Ryan Murphy will allow them to accept the concept that outside sex in gay relationships doesn’t usually have anything to do with the relationship itself, but again, that’s another posting.) Sure, there are all sorts of reasons for relationships to fail such as personality issues, money, etc., but let’s keep this about sex.
So this brings up my main concern about same-sex marriage: same-sex divorce. How often do we go into a relationship with the expectation that we’ll have a completely committed and monogamous lifelong bond? I think it’s necessary to separate the two in our sub-culture. Commitment and monogamy are two completely different things in gay relationships; at least with men – and gay men in particular. Let’s be real here…men as a whole are pigs. Now I’m not judging, in fact it’s one of those endearing qualities about men that I like. I think everyone has heard the phrase “a stiff dick has no conscience”, right? There is a reason for that cliché. But so many people I’ve spoken to are looking to enter into a relationship full of those heterosexual ideals that I believe are almost impossible to achieve in a homosexual relationship. And yet, when I press them for examples of themselves or people they know that are in or have been in long lasting relationships and one has never had sex outside the relationship, they can’t think of an example. Sure, there are exceptions, but the percentages are very small from what I can make out.
So my point here is that we need to rethink ourselves and not force our square pegs into the round heterosexual hole that is called marriage. We absolutely deserve to get married if that is what we want, but we also need to realize that we have a completely different reality in what our relationships truly are. I also believe that we can get to that committed-monogamous level, but it is going to take at least a couple of generations of reprogramming our mindset to match our thinking. Being denied the opportunity to have a marriage for so long has placed us on a different plane of dimension, thought processes, and behavior. That behavior is not going to change overnight with any judicial ruling.
Now, before you start writing to tell me how you are completely committed to your partner and how full of shit I am…consider this simple question: Why are you on this site? Is it just to read the articles? I don’t think so…it’s because you, as a man, regardless of your current relationship status, are still excited by outside sexual stimuli. It’s just the way it is…there isn’t anything necessarily wrong with it. If you knew…really knew that you could have an extracurricular sexual encounter and could totally get away with it…wouldn’t you do it? I think most men (gay or straight) would. OK…discussion on!
David Beck
I completely agree and it is why I have a certain degree of apprehension towards gay marriage. If we as a community want to be mainstreamed, then there is a certain price of sorts to pay. Example, I am a religious Jew but I observe within the context of a Modern Secular(but Christian-based) society. This means that I work on the Sabbath and do not get bent out of shape when somebody wishes me a Merry Christmas despite wearing a yarmulke(skullcap). In regards to our aspiration for marriage equality, monogamy means just that. Open-relationships are and no longer will be acceptable if we want our relationships validated and recognized as equal to hetrosexual relationships. In summation, despite a growing consensus among Americans that we are infact entitled to equality, it will take a change of attitudes to make the best of this opportunity for equality.
Given recent comments by Justice Scalia, you really have to wonder. Hopefully he’ll remain impartial (as he is supposed to) and deal with legalities, not his personal morals.
I really think you are on to something here with the committed vs monogamy paradox, we as gay men have been able to go in and out of relationships with nothing to hold us back like a marriage. Within a marriage one could legally take half of what the other person owns including money and up to this point the gay population have been able to by pass that part of a break up because of being denied the right to marry. Now with that on the table its very much possible that we will see a paradigm shift where couples will stay together longer and be monogamy.
Also I think having children will play a role in this as well. As gay couples marry and gain rights over their children they would not normally have, this, I believe, will increase the monogamous statistics.
This is honestly your only concern? Its a legit one but bigger concerns are the legal ramifications. Honestly, Gay marriage is wrong, along with straight marriage or any other marriage sanction of the state. Using an undeniable religious term for a legal union directly violates the first amendment. Instead of pushing for gay marriage, we should be pushing to have the term replaced if we want to call ourselves conscious citizens. Besides, out of all the states that have passed these bills only California got it remotely right. Take for example my state that just passed one. The politicians used misleading ballot language to make people think they had built in exemptions for religious groups. In the bill itself however they make it clear with the language they use that those are highly conditional and arbitrary exemptions which in short means no protections in the end. Now I am sure alot of the atheist fagnostics around here will start bellowing their anti-religious crap. Well you need to shut up. First off you are setting back rights. this is why most states have bans on gay marriage or voted down these bill because of that attitude and why the supreme court will. And second, you set back the rights of gay and bisexual people raised in a religious setting and in fact make it harder for them to come out. (I had an ex like that.)
I am also sure now separate but equal bullshitters will also pipe up. Its a childish and offensive argument. The reason it has been in some states separate but equal so far is because this is a unique issue where the rights of two groups are in the balance. And even when you pass gay marriage, its not equal. You just compromised another groups rights, culture, and beliefs. Take for example the catholic church, my understanding is they don’t care what legal rights same sex couples have but they are opposed to it being called marriage because it is in their eyes a sacred union. So think about it, removing the term marriage appeases all groups involved because everyone has legal rights under the same name. That’s actual equality, and you would even go so far as advancing rights for religious gay people possibly seeing as how certain groups would probably start taking less of a harsh stance against homosexuality. But as long as we push for something that is not our, as long as we maliciously lie and take advantage of other people and compromise other peoples rights to get what we want we are doomed to fail. But before I go I am going to leave you with a few thinking points. The first is, France has already done something similar to what I am proposing. In France there is no legal term called marriage, the only thing recognized by the state over there is a civil ceremony with some secular name. Everyone gets it. Second, alot of gay people CAN be monogamous, even ones my age. I know a couple that had been together for 50 years. And my last point, honestly if I had a BF right now and we were together, I for one would not care if we ever got married, I would be loyal to him regardless and ideally hopefully he would be loyal to me, and we would not need the incentive of a legal contract. Moreover, I would reject it if it was dirtied by dishonestly and inequality. Our problem now is that alot of gay mean and women right now cannot think beyond themselves and take this stance. Honestly, its going to hurt everyone in the end. =/
Everyone is different, so don’t put all gay men in one bucket. Open relationships may work for some, just as monogamous ones do.
All relationships are different. Some do well open, others prefer sexual monogamy, other still “play together.” This is the case for gay couples, lesbian couples and straight couples alike. Both married and unmarried.
Also, you are right that just about everyone (gay, straight, male, female) is “excited by outside sexual stimuli.” Most of the time people’s bodies don’t stop their normal basic functioning simply because they enter a relationship. That said, I think that this statement, “If you knew…really knew that you could have an extracurricular sexual encounter and could totally get away with it…wouldn’t you do it? I think most men (gay or straight) would.” is way off-base. I’ve been there in a monogamous relationship and in a situation where I knew, REALLY knew, that I could have “an extracurricular sexual encounter” and could have definitely gotten away with it, but didn’t partake. It’s kinda stupid to suggest that just because we still notice a hot guy, or like to watch porn that we have no control over our ability to say no to sex. I find that to be incredibly insulting. I’m an adult, I can and do choose when to have and when not to have sex.
You write this as if this doesnt happen in the heterosexual world and that it’s exclusively “our” issue. It’s a valid point, but I dont think will be an issue at all. Those who want to play till their 50s+ will do so (or not get married at all) and those who want a serious relationship will have that. Also, as far as the younger generations are concerned, I think their mindset is already more of a monogamous one which I think is a result of how different generations grew up in an ever changing country with it’s views on gays.
I think we are kidding ourselves if we.think we will ever.fit.into.the.monogsmous, heterosexual model.of marriage.
Marriage is a religious-superstition belief. Science has shown that humans are not liologically set up for one partner for life. Very few animals on Earth have one partner forever. Changing anyone’s superstition is impossible. They have to make that change for themselves. Stop thinking about the money same sex couples can save.Mark Twain said,”Religion was invented when the first con man met a fool.”
Your argument is contradictory, since you start out in paragraph two by questioning the adoption of heteronormative behavior, and then in paragraph three, you’re suggesting that we as gay men might want to reprogram ourselves to what you’ve already described as heterosexual. We don’t need to reprogram ourselves to anything; we need to be deprogrammed. Marriage is a malignant institution for everyone, and especially for gay men. It’s also important to point out that we’ve gone backwards on this issue. Former generations of gay men did not want gay marriage; it’s on the table now as valuable because of a conservative gay “leadership” telling us this is good. The fact that the gay community is engaged in a battle to be like heterosexuals is pathetic. With conservatives determining what we “want”, when we win, we lose, and when we lose, we lose, since the gay marriage debate itself is yet another club used to beat us up publicly. By the way, where did people get the absurd idea that heterosexuals have the right to proffer opinions on our lives? Heterosexuals have no right to have opinions on gay lives, whether these opinions are proffered ex cathedra or otherwise.
I live here in Washington State who is one of 4 states that the Voters were on our side when it came to Marriage Equality.
As of Sunday, many couples had the pleasure of being LEGALLY MARRIED and I for one am very excited about it!
Now, the flip side of this is pretty much my sentiment when it comes to GAY MEN and being able to commit themselves to just ONE MAN THAT THEY CHOOSE TO MARRY!!!! I feel that its a crap shoot when it comes to the marriage issue due to that fact, like it was stated earlier, men have a hard time (no pun intended) to keep it in their pants and want to hook up with other guys when an opportunity presents itself!!! Now, this is NOT to say that ALL GAY MEN are or will behave this way if they are in a committed relationship!!! But it could and can happen!!!!
I agree that it will take reprogramming of gay men’s attitudes towards healthy and monogamous relationships before we can truly feel EQUAL to our straight counterparts!!!!
Just my thoughts on this topic!!!
I for one continue to look for the man to Marry!!!!
You seriously need a reality check Mr. Blogman, this just shows you can make monogamy work and you don’t want to feel so bad, so you try to rationalize with pig headed things like this. This is just as bad as your Anderson Cooper boyfriend kissing another man post, that you so approved of, your full of ignorance.
Great blog…and I totally agree.
I have some reservations about the article but I don’t think it’s fundamentally flawed.
For one, I take issue with calling monogamy a heterosexual value. I don’t believe that monogamy, or a desire for monogamy, is reserved to heterosexuals or their relationships. If you want to argue that men in general value it less and therefore it’s valued less in a relationship with two men that’s fine. However, you may as well call monogamy a female value then because you’re essentially saying that heterosexual relationships are only monogamous because that’s what women prefer. It would then be a gender binary and not a sexual orientation binary.
Also, I think more needs to be done to separate “mental” monogamy from “physical” monogamy because they are two very different things. One of the great advantages of being gay is that you and your partner share your attractions. Instead of it being a point of contention there is a higher chance of it being a point of connection. If two men are at a restaurant and their waiter is hot they can both talk about that freely (at least in concept). If it is a man and a woman one of them isn’t going to be able to relate and will likely be put off.
That “connection” and shared experience does not translate to physical monogamy because when one person cheats on the other it is not a shared experience. One can appreciate the description of the “hot new guy at work” and want to see pictures but it is far more difficult to appreciate a description of physical contact between then because instead of joining in on the observation you’re being left out of the physical act.
Just as a disclaimer, I am not suggesting that homosexual couples are required to be monogamous if that’s their choice. Heterosexual couples can also choose to not be monogamous. I simply don’t think monogamy is a fundamental “flaw” in the concept of marriage for homosexuals. Using the square peg/round hole reference suggests and impossibility and I just don’t think that’s true.
Finally, I don’t think there’s a connection between being excited by outside sexual stimuli and not being compatible with monogamy. Being excited by outside stimuli, looking at porn and browsing profiles are not non-monogamous activities. Monogamy is defined as either being married to one person or only having physical sexual contact with one person. Merely being on this site does not violate that. It also isn’t limited to men. How many married women swoon and fantasize about celebrities? Isn’t a woman getting excited over a shirtless Ryan Gosling the same as a guy getting excited over a shirtless Ryan Gosling?
I personally believe that we should be allowed to get married. I believe that regardless of the fact that anyone might think that its a heterosexual value, the fact of the matter is that we shouldn’t have our rights limited. I believe it is limiting our rights and I don’t think its fair. The only solid argument that prevents us from getting married is because its not in the bible. While I am Christian and believe in God etc, I believe that there should be more separation of state and church pertaining to this matter. And so what if gays have a problem being monogamous? There are some of us who would prefer it. Not all heterosexuals are monogamous and they don’t get married until they decide its time to change that lifestyle.
You do a service to the community by alerting gay men to the fact that entering into a marriage means not only making promises to one another but also taking on the legally imposed obligations inherent in the institution. Like it or not, monogamy is expected and legally enforceable notwithstanding what arrangements a couple may agree to between themselves. This might not amount to much unless they find themselves in a divorce court (itself an expensive and involved process) in a state which has enacted (and most have) a “standard” marriage statute which merely adds same-sex couples but essentially copies its strait oriented marriage law.
What happens to a couple who agree to be “faithful” but not monogomous and so conduct their relationship but one eventually decides that using the “fault” ground of infidelity will better advance his claim for alimony or a larger share of the marital property in the context of a divorce proceeding? So far that case hasn’t arisen. The only certain outcome is a very messy (and expensive) court fight.
When I started to read this post, I thought I was going to disagree with most of what you had to say. However, I soon realized that wasn’t the case and I agreed with most of what you had to say. Although, I strongly support gay marriage and the rights that comes with the union I am not blind to your point of view. I look forward to your other blogs about this topic.
Amen brother. As a man I can seperate love from sex. Although sex with the man I love is more fullfilling sometimes a quick hit-it-and-quit-it is fun. I real go for the young barely legal 18yo teens they are fun and seeing the OMG what did I just do look after they experiment their first time is pricless. That being said they are not good for a relationship with me being older then them. Sometime we just need a little time to break out. Men cheat on their wifes becasue we have the primal urge to spread our seed. Monogamy was introduced by women. Hell in the Bible even King David had a many wives.
Men can seperate sex from love. We can make love with someone but at the same time we can have sex and not give that person another thought.
With the spredaing of the seed that is not so much true with the gay men because we know that a one night stand is not going to produce a child but the primal urge is there, it just so happens that on the way to our pants it passes thru the I like men filter.
I have a boyfriend that was area that I wanted an open relationship. He tried to push monogamy so I we talked and I we are still in an open realtionship.
Marriage with gays is hard to define and is it really that important. Also gay marriage is not as wide spread as you think. I have been over seas and while yes some countries have gay marriage most and im talke like 80% or more do not have gay marriage they have a special civil union for gay couples. Our news like to report it as marriage NBC, ABC, CBS, and FOX all distort that fact but it is a civil union and a sperate law for gay couples. It has simialer effect as marriage but differences.
Monogamy is hard for all people, gay or straight. Everyone I know (all adults anyway) seems to have faced a relationship with a cheater at some point. Gay or straight, people are still horny. I know more women who cheat on their husbands than husbands who cheat on their wives. And let us all keep in mind that marrige does not equal monogamy. Sure it’s a promise made between two people but how many guys have messed around with a “str8 married man”?
Marriage is what people make of it. Personally I am a form believer that adults should Marry whom they choose and how they handle that is their business. (I’m for legalizing polygamy/bigamy even though I personally practice monogamy.)
Sorry David, I pass on extra curricular activities, even when I know I won’t get caught – because I’ll know and I don’t want those bad vibes to haunt me.
I think this only speaks on behalf of some men….like you the author of this blog said some men are pigs. Some men are this and some men are that….but marriage as defined by my personal values is love. When you love someone whether that individual is of same or opposing sex this love usurped from the relationship is not a heterosexual. Thus Love is not monochromatic but instead is universal in all people of walks and life. Just because heterosexual pride themselves in monogamy does that mean that we can’t either? Is your husband not worthy of that cocnecept? If someone wanted to be in an open relationship than be in one not a marriage! Or perhaps go marry multiple husbands… The point is that marriage is something that shouldn’t be taken lightly and if those individuals in the relationships feel they are too big of “pigs” as quoted than maybe those individuals need to not get married. Monogamy is not a heterosexual value it is a value of conception birthed from love, dedication, and true respect for your partner.Now I am not speaking for all gay men nor am I discounting the legitimacy of your opinion but I feel that my contention is a valid one as well and should be considered…
I don’t think the nature of men being horny is the issue here I think it’s a reflection of my community and the men who constantly struggle with themselves, monogamy, personal restraint , knowing how to love each other ,and projecting that love without hurting others around us. … Recently my college professor quoted “TRUE love is the test of time” and I firmly believe in that. If two men can overcome the test of time together I affirm that as a valid contention in a word that can be spoken by an ocean of lips but only expressed by few….known as true love
Best regards,
From user: sup_j
I don’t know any gay couples where one of the partners hasn’t stepped out. On the other hand, I don’t know any of my straight guy friends who haven’t cheated either. Monogamy. for the most part from what I have seen in my lifetime is a fantasy women have created and men pretend is real. When i was young I used to want the “marriage” dream. But sooner or later I caught every guy I was dating in someone else’s pants. Now that i am middle aged and successful it would take a greek god with an airtight prenup to get me down the aisle.
You raise excellent points about adopting heterosexual values unconsciously. I personally have no interest in getting married, as I dislike what the institution stands for. I firmly believe that others should have the right to get married, as I am well aware that there are many ways to view marriage, and many compelling reasons for gay couples to get married.
With that said, I have been in a committed relationship for more than 19 years. I’m 43, so that’s most of my adult life. For 12 years my partner and I were monogamous.
If you told me early on in my relationship that we would open it up, I would have said you were crazy. I wanted monogamy–for many years. But that changed as we changed as a couple.
You never know where life will lead you.
I won’t go into the reasons we decided to open our relationship. But I will say I am on this site with full permission. I have always stood for honesty, and I require it in my partner and sex partners.
As gay men, we have many ways of having relationships. It’s one of the great things about being gay. We’re creative about it, and we create our own rules.
I think we do ourselves a disservice when we equate “commitment” with “monogamy.” Why should monogamy even be the ideal, when it is frankly an un-natural state of being? Humans have a very faulty record of being able to remain with just one partner sexually for their entire life.
Why force it?
If you and your partner choose monogamy, that’s great. If you don’t, that’s great too.
It should be about choice. And that’s the point.
The problem with traditional marriage is that it removes choice and enforces an unnatural arrangement for the sake of moralizing.
As gay men, we need to ask ourselves to what extent we wish to adopt heterosexual values, and to what extent we will remake the institution of marriage–just as we have remade society by coming out.
If we look at history, it pretty much predicts marriage equality will fail first. My hopes are not high for it at all. Don’t get me wrong, I have some hope, but not a lot. America has a history of rejecting freedoms before granting them. So don’t be suprised if marriage equality is denied, it’s the trend of American history.
Well, my take on this is different. I am opposed to the idea of marriage all together. I am bisexual and have no interest in being married to either a woman or a man. I think that monogamous love shouldn’t require a legally binding contract, if you want to be with someone forever until you die, why do you need a ring and a certificate to prove it? I think it’s much better proved in showing some character, that you can stay with someone without the threat of loosing half your assets if things don’t work out. Besides, I think that the human heart, be it gay, straight, bisexual etc. is capable of -truly- loving more than one person throughout it’s lifetime. We are meant to evolve and change and one person alone may not aid you in that over the course of time
I’m disturbed by Scalia’s comment that the congress and supreme court has a right to legislate “moral” issues… and it appears he’s inferring homosexuality is a moral issue. I’ve always had a problem with the word “marriage.” I don’t want to be married like my mother and father… I want a contractual relationship/partnership that has all the benefits and legal protections of marriage but isn’t related to some religious understanding of what marriage is…all these religious folk have a hair up their ass and go ballistic when you mention the word marriage between same sex couples… get rid of the freaking word.
I personally, can’t and won’t settle for anything less than my one true love. I’ve chosen to remain abstinant until I find him or he finds me. I only believe in momogomy. If I’m ever not enough, or if hehgoes into our relationship thinking about his next partner, then we weren’t meant to be together in the first place.
I’m sorry, but I take this whole ‘men will cheat’ thing very personally. I never have. And as I have been cheated on, I know I never can as I would never be able to face myself for doing to the man I love what was done to me.
I’m on this site for one reason only: to meet people. If it happens that I find my partner out of it, so much the better. But if I do, then I will be deleting my profile. Thatis just the way I am, and I wasn’t programed to think it as I’ve been inbedded in gay society as an adult with my options open far longer then I was in straight society.
OK WTF is this shit? Do I look at other men? Yea, who doesn’t. Am I on this site? Yes. Do I come here to get laid? No. I am happily partnered, it says so on my profile. I come here to meet new friends, and it has worked well for me. It’s a simplistic mindset that thinks that “Oh well we are gay so it’s OK to be sluts” No it’s not, grow up.
Legal or not sanctioned Gay Marriage has problems within the union! Male to Male unions are often are doomed for the start, because both partners are seeking the same male bonding that they never received from their family! Once the sex heat wares off neither partner is getting what they have craved! The relation often becomes sisters and the they bring young men to excite the sex again – not a stable or lasting foundation to build a relationship!
Maybe, just maybe, the roots of infidelity in gay relationships stem from the inablility to legally wed ones partner; thus the consequences would be much lesser than a hetero relationship. Or, much like heteros, there is a lack of maturity on the part of the “cheater” and infidelity is rampant across the entire spectrum. Who knows. More importantly, why should a government disallow one to marry, regardless of whom they are? If your against gay marriage, don’t do it.
Being monogamous is not a Heterosexual value. and being gay doesn’t give us the freedom to be cheater. It might be convenient for your website for people to think that way.
There are different levels in human’s life. One of them is be free, meet people and fuck around. Another one is the need of having somebody next to you. One day we will get older and we will need a partner for life, have only sex with one to avoid STD’S, Build a financial base and when that day comes, Then you can get marry and be faithful.
Gay nature is not cheater nature. Don’t make people make that assumption.
This really do have me thinking. Especially about my current relationship status. As I am in a relationship and even though it has been defined as monogamous. It’s clearly understood that we both have side activities, which we would both not mention to each other. Some may say the ramifications are dire but at the end of the day, he knows that I’m home in his bed and I personally know that even though I’m on here, my number priority is him over any shag n vice versa. I’m not saying it’s for everyone but it takes a certain level of trust n maturity to reach such a level of ” committed” understanding with your partner. After all I’m getting a gift each week before Xmas lol….if that ain’t love then who knws..
Or we could get married and still fuck other people. Like every heterosexual married couple secretly does anyway. Gay marriage doesn’t need to become monogamous, open marriage needs to come out of the closet.
I agree. We have a lot of growing to do as gay men if we want the right to marry. We need to rethink our idea of what a committed relationship should be; And what the ramifications of fooling around, which is what gay men like to do, is going to cost us.
I find your broad sweeping generalizations about gay men and relationships to be offensive. It’s condescending and patronizing to tell me I want what I want only because it was drummed into my head. If that was the case, I’d want women. I want a committed monogamous relationship because it’s what I feel deep in my core is right for me. It may not be right for you, but don’t presume I’m less evolved or lying to myself because our dreams are different.
MARRIAGE FOR ALL OR DIVORCE FOR “NO ONE”. Period.
When “the loud and proud” begin to behave like responsible, reasonable adults, gay marriage will not be an issue for society or the courts. Ramming the “we deserve it like everyone (heteros) else!!!” won’t fly as long as the “loug and proud” are a) militant (aka offensive) about it and b) refuse to accept that marriage is generally understood to be a life long commitment. Yes, some heterosexual couples “play” outside of the couple, but they are the minority, the vast minority. When the “gay community” behaves responsibly and shows they are “just like everyone else” when it comes to marriage, they’ll easily get what everyone else has. Until then, what they’ll get is resistance. I know gay couples who are respected by their friends, neighbors and coworkers where other gays are not. Why? No ramming; they are “just another couple”. there’s no “we’re here; we’re queer; deal with it!”
I have always been, and can only imagine myself as a completely monogamous gay man. It has ended relationships, and in fact, has been the cause of me feeling lonely for quite some time because I cannot shake the fact that I would rather be alone than be cheated on again. I know there are other gay men out there with the same wants as myself in regards to a relationship/family, but they are extremely few from what I can tell. It gets more difficult to hold onto these old-fashioned values as I grow older, but it’s my right to want a monogamous marriage and a child, possibly even two. I’m so grateful that future generations of gay men have a chance at something more than what I have had. I wouldn’t begrudge them that for anything.
Its somethng to think about. I think it will cause gay men to actually look more into a person, besides their looks and dick size, but actually invest in a person. What can the other person offer me? Can they provide in a marriage? Gay men will have to change a lot of their mindsets and re evaluate themselves. I for one do not care if we are given the right to marry but i am also one who does not care about gay pride parades and the like. Basically the gay population is not ready for marriage.
I don’t know about anyone else, but do we really need this, gays are not the most monogamous people in the world, they are like shoppers going from shop to shop, much like the straight couple except worse, unless you have money and power, or are a model etc, normal gays don’t want to be tied to one person, and as far as I know, the ones that have been in a relationship for many years are now wanting to opt out or have an open relationship, I believe this marriage is a load of nonsense,the government are just wasting their time.
The institution of marriage has long outlived serving those who are married. It basically serves only the institution which has always been primarily about money not two souls coming together to help each other evolve. That is my definition of any relationship whether sanctioned by marriage or not. Look back to the old dowry system and now we see families spending thousands of dollars on weddings that more often than not only last on average five years. Gay marriage for many states means nothing more than economic stimulus disguised by giving rights to gay folks who can’t get acknowledged otherwise. The real human rights issue here is not about the benefits of marriage like tax breaks and partners being able to make their own decisions about each others health care, but true human rights are not going to be granted or move forward until gay folks are treated equally and respected for whatever they choose to do in relationships whether they be open, commited or serial monogamy. Just because the states and or the supreme court deem gay marriage a right for us to own does not mean that straight folks will grant us the respect and or deem our relationships equally God ordained as theirs. So I say we should not mirror the larger culture we live in but create new cultural norms that work for our unique gay relationships.
I am not for gay marriage at all. In fact, I am not for marriage at all. I think the better option would be to take away the incentives for married people that everyone keeps referencing and let everyone pay the same tax liablity.
I like to think one day we can be one on one. I keep out hope that one daty it will happen for me. It won’t happen until we are all honest with each other though. That means being honest on here with pictures status and stats!
I totally agree with mainstream trying to get us to conform to the norm of the heterosexual relationship. I won’t speak on others relationship but on my own. I have been with my partner going on 8yrs and we have discussed getting married but not because of monogamy but to show the world that gay couples can be committed. What works for us may not work for everyone. We are comfortable in the strength of our love and understand that we are men and love sex so we invite thirds to join us in the bedroom. We don’t have to cheat cause when we find someone attractive and want to have sex with them we do it together. I truly feel that love and sex are two different things, we want to get married because we love each other and when we have threesomes it’s for the purpose of busting a nut
Marriage is about commitment. Cheating is about getting some on the side while still enjoying the marriage-related financial benefits (and avoiding the costs of divorce and living alone, resulting in a possible change in socioeconomic class). People cheat because they want their cake and eat it, too. Why not tell your spouse you want to get into bed with someone else? Because you know most likely you will suffer financially when all is said and done. Why should this be any different for gays?
In any case, gay Americans have been paying for, with their taxes, straight-marriage-related benefits while at the same time being denied, by law, those same benefits. This is taxation without representation.
Let us marry whom we want and, if we screw up, then let us get a divorce, too.
I have been pondering over this hole gay marriage thing for quite some time. While i do believe that this is a civil rights issue that will pass in the Supreme Court. My reservations are exactly the same as the one you stated. I no of maybe 2 M2M couples who last more then five monogamous years. I have often called this the five year itch (that usually starts in the third year). However I do Not relate this to this heterosexual thing cause 60% of them end in divorce. I think as men we have this thing of wanting it All and feelings are not what we think with its other parts of our anatomy. We see with our eyes and think with our head and i do Not mean the one on our shoulders. All i can say is be careful of what you ask for cause we just might get it. Marriage is a great thing and i think everyone should have this opportunity but my vote is still out on the monogamy para dime.
You are using marriage in the narrowest (straight) sense. I agree that total monogamy is unlikely in a gay marriage. Enbrace it and realize that marriage, especially as we age, is about taking care of each other, companionship, sharing, and the most important: financial advantage, healhcare and other benefits couples enjoy. To thknk of martiage as just about sex is very limiting. Gays can celebrate their sexuality and still be in a committed relationship.
The heteornormative mindset of same-sex marriage can most decidedly have the “I can tolerate those gays because they own a house, drive a minivan, shop at Walmart, and their kids go to the same school as my kids.” effect. What if the marriage is between an older man and a young twinktastic man? I can hear the tongues wagging now “Now, THOSE gays are why they never should have gotten the right to marry in the first place!” I think the Supreme Court will strike down Calif Prop 8 in such a way that it has the effect of making same-sex marriage legal by default in all 50 states, but THAT will not bring tolerance. I fear it will breed more intolerance on both sides. On Facebook, same-sex marriage advocates attack straight marriage all the time by pointing out Brittney Sprears had a 1 day marriage and other idiocy. Same-sex marriage is a near reality, but we’re far from hearing the end of the uproar.
Do we need to assume the heterosexual definition of marriage or do we, having finally attained to right to marry define what mariage means to us as a community? Yes there is a price to pay, but we all know that monogamy cannot be a standard on which we base our “marriage”. On a very basic (primitive) Level the male animal or plant species has always been the aggressive wondering type. There are exceptions, but generally that holds. We cannot and should not expect gay men to remain faithful
Marriage should be about commitment and an openess to your mate. In this regard we all fall short…gay or non-gay. Marriage should provide the assurance that, should one partner preceed the other in death, the surviving partner continues to benefit from the fruits of their combined labors and not have to stand defensless as the “In-Laws” claim everything that isn’t titled to surviving spouse. Marriage is about building something together, surviving/weathering the challenges and celebrating the victories of life with that special one.
Marriage, especially gay, cannot be based on monogamy. It has to be based on a sense of mutual respect…keep your dirt out of sight and all will be well.
I completely agree. There is no future in this. Men as a whole (gay, straight, bi) are not willing to do the WORK in a relationship. Could u imagine the potential economic ramifications of this? Imagine a gay couple who now has the same priveledges as a classic couple taking out a wedding loan and the shit doesn’t last and then imagine a messy, brutal, ugly divorce hearing. Ouch! There is no love in this. I know too many guys who tried suicide from being hurt or who are alone and looking for random ass. When I was with guys, they would break up with me over ONE thing and I would never hear from them again. Any woman I was with was willing to do the work. Men as a whole in society need to be taught how to do the work in a relationship cuz u will hardly ever see a gay couple get counseling when they know they need it. If we are gonna take the marriage stuff seriously for this sub group, I think pre and post marital counseling should be MANDATORY
The discussion points are valid. The argument for marriage is not consistent among gays and lesbians. I am not the mainstream, but the desire for marriage between my partner of 25 years and myself is more for equal-benefits/rights. We have built a life together with children and have long-term financial stability. We both have professional careers with retirement plans. Yes, we have gone through estate planning (Living Wills, Durable Power of Attorney, Last Will and Testaments, etc.). Our lawyer, whom we both agree has a valid point, recommends marriage for the ‘legal benefits and estate dispersion’ to lend legal weight incase of challenges to our estate. We have the emotional commitment, but our concern is to ensure that the estate goes to the ‘surviving spouse’ and our children versus winding up in a legal battle.
I feel that most of what was stated is true. We as a whole have adopted some of the issues that are faced within hetero culture, although they may not fit within our own parameters of what gay men and our culture sees as a relationship. I dated one man and one man alone that i was completely faithful to but to me that was a different circumstance. The only person in the world i wanted to see naked was him and nothing more and even after three years of dating i felt the same way. Now most are wondering if we are currently dating and no we are not but not due to cheating or anything of that sort, he died at a rather young age and i have dealt with that as well. But i digress my main point here is that gay men can be in monogamous relationships just as straight people are but our idea of monogamy is different. Personally i dont find a reason to cheat on a person, if i were to do so id dissolve the relationship. I am single thus me being on this site and have the freedom to do whomever i choose. Now with my most recent relationship we have an agreement, mainly because i am away at college and he can sleep with who ever he wants and i am ok with that. It may not last for ever that way but we understand one another. I believe that is the main difference between the gays and straights. They are forced to believe they must not have sex with anyone outside of their relationships but we are not told that we are not subjected to their ideals of a relationship. So we must in turn figure it out on our own. Everyone will have their own ideas of what works and doesn’t work for them and their partner. The guys on maverick men are a good example, they clearly love one another but they play together and i see no issue with that and true how would gay divorce work
I am in the minority I am sure, but in seeking gay marriage and other rights currently denied us as gay men and women, we also need to address the fact that we are seeking SELECTIVE RIGHTS, and not TRULY EQUAL rights. We should have the right to a messy divorce, we should have the right to squabbling relatives arguing over our wills, we should have the right to adopt kids then pay hundreds of thousands to raise them, and to pay for expensive weddings of their own and to go into deep debt, we have the right to be audited by the IRS as to filing jointly, seperately, or however we file as a couple, That’s what we need to focus on…..truly quesla rights in that we take the bad with the good.
Why anyone would want to emulate the failed concept of marriage is beyond me. Sure I understand the tax benefits and such, but just take a look at the rate of divorce amongst the breeders. It would no doubt be higher among gay men. As you said gay men are much more prone to cheat. I think most straight men would cheat, if they thought they could get away with it, but the consequences are much higher in a marriage, ie; divorce, with the prospect of loseing everything. I think gay men should think about the negatives, divorce,the fight over kids, alimony and the prospect of losing everything you have worked for.
I’m not entirely sure that the fact that because men “tend” to be pigs over females should matter. Think about some of the guys you’ve encountered on here that are in heterosexual marriages, and how hard they’re trying to stay discree, yet get their “gay fixes” as they see fit. Heteros are just as susceptible to cheating as gay guys are; but the fact that the cheating element is a reality should not subtract from the fact that marriage should happen. Marriage is symbolic of a union, and should be a right carried with that. Divorce is a separate issue that can occur when a marriage is supposed to end…
I could be off the mark here, and I may not be explaining myself…
Although it could be some true but there are other things that imply the fight of equal marriage more than fidelity. Are you implying that no matter what we tried to be committed being gay means open sex to everyone?
If people would rather cheat on their partners or have multiple NSA encounters per day, then their solution is to simply not get married. But for those of us who value the word marriage as a lifetime commitment to one person, not as a hetero value, we can’t do so because of people who think like what is in this post. It’s those pathetic, low-life queers who can’t remain faithful that give the term gay marriage, and gay relationships, a very bad rep. I mean, how dumb is “I’m concerned that we gay men constantly attempt to bring heterosexual values into a homosexual relationship?” How is being faithful to one person a hetero value? It has nothing to do with sexuality. It has to do with how decent a human being can be. This article is stupid. Gay men are just as capable as being monogamous as a straight person. Both people in the relationship just have to have the moral aptitude to not be scumbags. That quality is hard to find nowadays though because, like this article, cheating on a partner is almost as common as catching HIV. Wait a second, could those be related??? :O
If you think opposite-sex couples follow some movie ideal of monogamous relationships, you need to look at the statistics. The only thing that is holding straight, married men back is getting women to agree to it. And they’re not in short supply either. That stats on heterosexual male fidelity show that they’re no paragons of virtue either.
The problem with fictional presentations is that they don’t match reality. Actually, think of the movie “One Hour Photo.” When Robin Williams’s character Sy learns that the husband has been cheating, he arranged for the wife to accidentally receive the photos. Then he sits in his car outside his house. When there is no fight he erupts “what is wrong with you people.” Only near the end when there’s a crisis does she say to one of her husband’s coworkers, “I know he’s fucking Mya.”
Okay two parts:
As a whole very true… stereotypically
BUT…
As a gay man honestly looking for a monogamous relationship, and having tried the dick a day plan, found it lacking.
I mean don’t get me wrong sex is great….LOVE IT, but i would rather have it with one person, than one person a night.
And yes I have cheated, and been cheated on, neither were pleasant to my self at all…in fact the time I cheated, I tried to hide it from my significant other and broke down cause of it.
David I’m truly troubled by your statements. I don’t believe monogamy is trying to immulate or assume some sort of heterosexual values at all. I believe logically, monogamy is a value that all relationships should strive for regardless of sexual orientation. Just look where promiscuity and multiple partners has gotten us. STD epidemics including AIDS and all the others. Emotional heartache and emptiness from being used and using others. Social dysfunction because we don’t learn how to respect eachother. Violence and victimization from picking up dangerous tricks. Substance abuse that results from clubbing and depression. The negative results of a promiscuous lifestyle are endless. Why, how could anyway say that’s a lifestyle we should accept and continue pursuing?! You say most guys can’t name a successful monogamous couple. Can you name any truly happy promiscuous men? I think homosexuals should strive for monogamy because its better than the alternative. And I think heterosexuals should resume striving for monogamy. The disintergration of the family and the high rate of out-of-wedlock births isn’t doing them any good either. Finally, I assume you’re still a fairly youngman based on your comments. Wait until you’re over the gay hill without a partner and you’ll wish to God you had found a longterm partner back in your younger days when you could still attract a man.
Yes—I do agree and also understand the issues/problems that could come out related to any legal gay marriage issue! In my opinion, we do have a right to feel that our non-hetero relationship is important or recognized by others in society or that we aren’t 2nd class citizens-including rights as inheritance/tax breaks and such, BUT are too many of us focused like a pit bull on the LABEL or TITLE of marriage that we won’t settle or consider to anything else that means the same or has the same standing? Look at why all the religious people and some straights are fighting against a gay “marriage” thing so much–even as many say they would have NO PROBLEM with a civil union or anything else. It’s the label MARRIAGE that is so up in arms here. Do we care so much what our union is called so long as we have the same rights/privileges and legal standings or is it just arguing to be arguing? We want to be thought of as the same as others in society, but we do have our own unique things as well–No, it’s not always the male-female roles or other stereotypes at play-but it’s hard to wanna be like everyone else and try and fit our situation into something that isn’t fully like ours! Can gay men be monogamous or not wanna have sex on the side…and is that so terrible if they do? I don’t know really–men seem to be much more sexual and think about it much more than women. Is it the same forcing 2 men to only be with each other or ELSE just like 2 men who want to be called MARRIED like straight couples instead or ELSE? Is it natural for humans, like animals to be committed and only sexual with one partner forever and ever or is that totally setting ourselves up for failure?
This is exactly why gay marriage is never going to pass on a federal level. We have painted this picture in society that gay(men) cannot commit, we have rediculous parades with half naked people, drag queens and snotty twinks and call it pride. Pride in what exactly? the fact that because of these activities we are supposed to be taken seriously by Mr. and Mrs. Smith and their 2.5 children? I think that there are very monogomous gay couples out there and they really want to be together (married) and they should have that right, however the majority makes a complete joke out of their commitment. I know what this site is about, and I understand that if you are single, open relationshiped, or just not ready to come out then this site is for you, however it does not paint a very good picture for those that want a stereotypical monogomous relationship. Not all men are pigs and want to or need to sleep with anything that walks, and there are men who thrive on having one man/woman in their lives and it is all they need, they should have the opportunity to experience they “dream” like everyone else. I for one am single and I really do not hook up on this site, I use it as a social outlet, much like facebook or twitter, a way of making new friends, I would like one person in my life, I am one of those weird guys that only needs one, not many, and I should be awarded that opportunity. There seems to be this battle within our own community and we should be able to accept each other’s relationship decisions, just like we want everyone else in the world to accept ours. Yet we are at constant odds with each other what are we republicans? Let’s grow up and work together otherwise get out of the game.
David,
Call me old-fashioned, but I personally disagree with your insight into this matter. Granted, you do have a truthful point with regard to typical gay relationships and the inherent lack of monogamy that they entail…but I believe marriage is a sacrament and NOT merely just an institution which affords convenient benefits for partnered men.
If I am going to marry a man who I love, it is going to be forever. I’m going to be positive that he is the one I want to spend the rest of my life with, honoring, respecting, loving, and caring for. I think the values of traditional heterosexual marriages should be the same as the values in a homosexual marriage. The term “marriage” itself is defined as a monogamous, committed bond between two individuals, in which the bonded pair have decided to commit themselves to one another, and to one another only.
Regardless of whether or not men are, as you described, “pigs”, if a man truly loves another man and has gone so far as to marry him, he should remain faithful to that man. Cheating on a lover is one thing; however, cheating on a spouse is unforgivable, in my opinion.
Bottom line…while I feel men SHOULD have the freedom to marry other men, marriage is not something to be taken lightly. If you would prefer to be in “open-relationships”, then perhaps marrying your boyfriend isn’t such a good idea for the long haul.
A favorable ruling changes the dynamics of equality and the perceptions that all peoples of our great nation are to be valued without separatist idealogies.
I think you are missing the point to the fight for gay marriage. Most gay men would agree that a piece of paper is not needed to define a relationship. The fight for gay marriage is the right to file a joint tax return, stay in your partner’s hospital room after general visiting hours, share insurance and social security benefits. It is these financial and social benefits that are the most important. It is not about becoming something we may or may not be as gay men.
One of the cases being heard is an elderly woman who owed over $300K in back taxes when her partner died. A hetero couple would not have had to pay this. This fight is for standing in the eyes of the law that we are afforded the same rights as a heterosexual couple. I don’t believe people are fighting for gay marriage in order to conform to the restraints of a heterosexual marriage.
i think that same-sex marriage is exactly what we deserve. how many times have we, as gay men, fallen in love, have been in a relationship with someone that we know and love, and wanted to marry that person to make it official. so please don’t give up and hope and pray that the u.s. supreme court gives us the approval of gay marriage.
I think monogamy for gay marriage and the gay community is somewhat aligned to social upbringing, adult friendship formation and family bond. Those who grew up in a family with married parents and as adults chooses to socialize with friends who support monogamous relationship are more likely to achieve greater success in their marriage/relationship than individuals who grew up in families with revolving door partners and who socialize with friends who support open promiscuity and one night stands.
While in my 20s, I shared an apartment with a close college friend who had a revolving door policy, which could include more than two men on any given day. We would have serious discussions about why my behavior was so rigid, in comparison to his flexibility with his changing suitors. I realized that our social upbringing were extremely different and where he saw nothing wrong with enjoying himself with multiple partners, I on the other hand thought about how risky the behavior was and how if I wanted to open with my family about my sexuality, that to win their support would entail having just as structured a family life with a single partner as all my other seven siblings. I knew it would be disturbing to my parents to show up every year for Thanksgiving or Christmas with a different “friend” or even just to show up alone. I wanted that open dialogue with my parents, my siblings and my extended family about who my partner is and that we would be included in everyone’s daily lives.
In order for our gay marriages to work, we will need to have friends who support our unions, families in which we forge deeper bonds with our parents, siblings, our families children and the friends that comes in to join our families. There is no such thing as bringing heterosexual values into a gay marriage. We learn from heterosexual and homosexual friends and colleagues in our single gay lives. We take glimpses into the lives of people around us and we decide for ourselves what we want and what we want to discard. The same concept will also apply to couples involve in a gay marriage. A marriage is not a sprint, it is a marathon and those who are prepared to go the distance will last, and it will not matter if your spouse is viewing the editorial on A4A or looking as the sweet asses on tight built bodies. What becomes important at the end of the day is are you in or are you out the door.
I also agree. The “hetrosexual” ideals of marriage have been around for a long time and infidality is the common reason for divorce, etc. I have met several gay couples who want a 3rd man to spice up their sex lives. Personally if I ever get married, I would also get bored of having sex with the same person for x amount of years. As human beings we need variety to keep ourselves from going insane with the mundane. Sure like you said there are few couples that manage to stay monogamous, but in this culture/society, it is almost impossible. In the past before gays were more open, yes gay men may have been more monogamous because it was rare to encounter another gay male in a religious dominated society.
For children, i would think that couples would stay monogamous in order to set a positive example to the kids that cheating is wrong.
Another example was that recently I witnessed a young couple making their vows to get “married” by one guys traditional ceremony. However a month later, they split. I would say that it is harder to maintain a good homosexual relationship during this social networking and porn period of time.
I completely disagree with what this blog has to say. Wanting to be with one person for the rest of your life isn’t “heterosexual values”. That’s giving justification to cheaters. If someone doesn’t want to be in a committed relationship then they should be upfront and say that. That goes for the gay and straight communities. By saying as a gay community, marriage would basically screw up our sub culture is (in my viewpoint) ridiculous.
your basic premise is flawed.
with half of heterosexual marriages ending in divorce, you could easily posit that the institution itself has failed, outliving its historical function as a means of easing the transfer of property.
i find the presumption that we cheat because we’re gay to be as insulting as it is misguided.
i hope that one of your future articles will deal with the 1000+ legal rights and protections granted to sanctioned couples that unmarried couples do not.
in fact, that’s what one of the cases the court will be hearing is about– a $363,000 tax bill that would not have been owed had their only been one vagina involved.
Watch “The Good Wife”. When monogamy was brought up as a rule for gay marriages it was brought up about “free fridays”. Not all men even straight men feel that monogamy is a standard. Why should anyone feel that that is where marriage begins and ends. It doesn’t have to. Married men and women flirt and “cheat” …get over it. What binds two people together is not a shackle on each others gonads. It shouldn’t be. There is a stronger bond with people who stay together even if they “cheat”. Marriage vows state what each person wants of the other person. Fidelity is a no win useless expression of what should be and almost never is. And don’t give me the crap that so and so was faithful to such and such for their entire lives. The only people who know that there was no “cheating” is the individual who says he was or is. Who cares after all. Will you be there when I need you, when I can’t do it all by myself. Will you be there. Not will you abstain from sex with anyone else. Simple. Next question. By the way these legal issues are always solved with a prenuptual. How romantic! Just as romantic as shackles on my dick which some guys like …for different reasons.
Geebus, thanks for perpetuating the stereotype that all gay men, or just men in general are incapable of being in a monogamous relationship. It’s pretty clear that you’re a little biased regarding this topic, especially when you equate monogamy as being a “heterosexual” value.
It’s totally fine for you as an individual to shun the so-called heterosexual value of monogamy, it’s just your preference. Just because it doesn’t apply to you doesn’t mean it applies to everyone else. Saying men aren’t “built for monogamy” is just as silly as when some people claim a person cannot have feelings for both sexes (bi), or gay people supposedly “choose” to live the gay lifestyle, etc, etc. If you and your partner want to partake in an “open relationship” that’s your prerogative.
I’ll speak for myself here. Yes, I enjoy sexual stimuli. Yes, I have nude pics, flirt & tease while online. Yes, I hook up once in a blue moon – but it remains that way because I simply don’t like the way I feel when I hook up with someone I don’t have feelings for. And when I’m in a relationship, I don’t troll a4a looking to hook up with other guys or seek threesomes. I once dated someone who wanted to see me have sex with another guy, and the suggestion itself was hurtful a TOTAL turnoff for me. And it also evaporated any notion on my end that we could eventually share a long term relationship because I knew I wouldn’t be willing to fulfill that fantasy for him.
It’s funny you mention Jim Crow. Many people, including this very website tend to perpetuate negative stereotypes about black people. Look what that type of treatment has done for the community – many people of the black community lag behind in achievement when compared to other “races”. Granted, there are many who don’t follow the role that society has mapped out for them, and many make a conscious effort to progress and dictate their own destiny. The same applies to the gay community. IMO, the gay community has been stigmatized for so long that many have fallen into harmful practices that only hurt themselves. The blacks and the gays have become the so called red headed stepchildren of society. Sticks and stones will break your bones, but names will words will always hurt. The symptoms of negative stigma & bullying are evident, I just don’t think people recognize it for what it truly is.
It seems like so many men have given up on love, and turned into zombies & junkies. Only chasing fresh meat, always seeking the euphoric orgasm with someone new. When I look into the eyes of someone like that, I see someone who is dead inside. Cold. Empty. And as I stare I wonder, “Where’s the fucking emotion??”… I just can’t relate. Maybe I’m too sensitive. Or crazy 😉 But I sure as hell don’t want to transform into someone like that in my later years and if I had to choose, I’d rather remain single. Not because of some sort of “heterosexual standard”, but because I’m being true to myself.
I think gay men such as several of you above, need to stop categorizing their fellow gay men as if we were a monolith.
Some want monogamy, some don’t. Some want marriage, some don’t. Some have the ability/desire to be sexually adventurous when not in a relationship, but committed solely to a partner while in one; and some don’t.
How’s that all that different from heterosexuals? It isn’t.
Nor is any of this unprecedented guesswork: hell, some countries have had marriage equality for a decade or more now, and nothing’s really changed: they still have their man-whores, their club fuckers, their bathhouse Betties… and they still have their HiHoneyI’mHomes… and everything in between. No real change, save for the latter having federal rights and recognition.
As such, should the trepidation of any individuals afraid/nervous/wary/unsure of any paradigm shift, that will inevitably take place once marriage becomes available nationwide, be a reason not to support marriage rights for those who would indeed CHOOSE to partake? If you answered “yes,” then you’re the epitome of selfishness.
that there anoter iuuse youall might have if ou deciecd to get mareed if you gay you goingot fored to pay more in marreage taxses then stright cuppel will why you ask beecase the irs no donse regnaise same sex marages like they if you weere straight cupples tiaa trute fact
Well, there are other countries where gay marriage is legal. Do the married gays in these countries face worse problems than married heterosexuals? Is the divorce rate among married gays in these countries much higher? We could use these other societies as a guide. Regarding monogamy in marriage…plenty (and I mean puh-lenty) of straight marriages are far from monogamous and end up in a disaster for all concerned. We gays could set a new example and tell the straights that it is okay to have sex outside marriage AND stay committed to your spouse and children mentally, financially, emotionally, as well as sexually (this last one pertains to the spouse). In other words, let’s tell the world that it is possible to have your cake and eat it too!
This article implies that all base human impulses are wholesome and good. I’m sure tons of you have thought murder and suicide would be a good way to vent some frustrations but we don’t condone them. Please stop trying to widen the gap that hetero and homo relations are drastically different. If your into monogomy, great…and if you and your partner choose to have sex outside of the relationship and both are ok with that,also great…but don’t bother to tell the rest of us that that’s the way it shoulda be instead.
I think that it really boils down to the two men that are considering marriage. What is it that they want? What kind of marriage or relationship is it that best fits them. I don’t want to judge anyone at all, but I feel that if you are in a relationship with one man, you should commit and be monogamous to him.
We all know that we can get sex basically any time that we want right?? Thats old hat…but there are gay men out there that regardless of hetero or homo standards wants one man and only that man. I am one of those gay men. I just figure why bother with all those extra added emotions, drama and bonding with one, when I can be single and do what I want with no guilt or repercusion.
i too believe that if a gay man wants me to vote for equal rights under the laws of marriage then stay monogomous , and end your debochery of sexual pleasure and stop spreading your seed all over town, i mean it , you cant have it both ways the author of this blog seems to think its our god given right to be sexually active with every guy we think is sexy , WELL ITS NOT AND I WASNT TRAINED TO BE “QUOTE STR8 AND BE MONOGOMOUS , ITS JUST RESPECT FOR YOUR SELF YOUR BODY AND YOUR PARTNER SO U DONT BRING HOME DEASISES. SORRY IM NOT A REPUBLICAN AND IM NOT STUCK UP JUST THATS THE WAY I SEE IT
I agree with what has been written above, however the writer and everyone should know that not all hetrosexual marriage is mongamous. There plenty of hetrosexual marriages that are shatter by “flings” and as the writer stated the fling is mostly by the male side of the marriage. Man must remember that the creator gave man two heads but only enough blood supply to run one at a time.
I disagree. But only because my religious beliefs and my own personal morals get in the way of even thinking about cheating on my partner.
Wow!! I like your committed vs. monogamous realization of gay men relationships.
I’m on this site to find a hook up. I’ve caught my boyfriend on a couple of different sites looking for hook ups too.
We are committed to each other – but not monogamous. The unhealthy part of our relationship is that we have not talked about the non-monogamous aspect of it. The non-monogamous part could turn healthy if we talked about it and came to a complete concise mutual understanding.
We talk about getting married. . .it is legal in the state of New York. Good points are brought up in the conversation so far: will our marriage be validated by both of us if we continue to play on the side? I think that the first step for our marriage to be valid (when or should we get married) is that we validate it ourselves. People will then validate our marriage making us validate our marriage even more.
Any additional thoughts from anyone else? How does this situation apply to your relationship?
For the single guys, is an open relationship worthy of marriage? What if the relationship hides the play-time away from each other?
Well I have to say that I do agree. And all u guys have good decent points. And because of this issue since we don’t have equality it seems alot of gay men think that because not married legally that most of the time that’s why cheating occurs alot. but weather legally married or not. I’ve seen it and been there to many times wh ere they go astray. Cuz they going to cheap regardless. Guess it don’t matter In the long run. Guess I’ve just been hurt to many times to the point I don’t know if I could trust again enough to even think bout marriage anyway. Well thanx for the pleasure of letting me put my 2cents in
My partner & I have been together for eight years in an open relationship (mainly because I can be a whore at times) and neither of us agree with the term “gay marriage”.
Being raised in religiously conservative families who accept us living together as gay men as helped be comfortable with what we have. I know many others who attempted this gay marriage but where are they now? Yip one usually “cheats” and they get divorced.
Thanks for the right up. It is surely something to think about. I think that gay men are going to have to learn how to be monogamous. We have only recently been able to show our gayness openly or at least with out having serious consequences. For so many years we basically had to sneak to get sexual satisfaction. And we had to get it when and wherever we could. Via, alley’s,car, parks. Now that we can marry, I think our sneakiness haunts us. I wonder if we really can learn how to be monogamous? Is there really any such thing?
marriage is marriage. you get rights (like Social Security benefits and other inheritance “rights” like our families enjoy), and you get the responsibility of being a co-joined financial entity….his debt is now your debt, his medical decision and debt is now yours, and so on. marriage has always been about property and progeny. wives (plural) became the property of the husband. with marriage, the inheritance usually went to the eldest son (bastard or not), though that has changed over the years,and will only be complicated with gay marriage, children and death/divorce. with the many benefits of a long-lived marriage — pensions, inheritances, medical say-so, comes the oh so familiar- to at least half the heterosexual community- of how to divide resources in a divorce(s) and other issues that even for our straight friends differ from state to state, and ultimately will rest with the federal government and the Social Security Administration.
marriage is a mixed bag of rights and responsibilities – ask Tom Cruise – and is not for the faint-hearted. it is a co-joining of assets, debts, rights and responsibilities that more than half of our hetero friends fail at. but, at least there are laws to sever for them those financial and familial obligations (or continue them via child support and/ or palimony). this is the challenge for us. do we really understand the consequences of a true “marriage”?
even with the Supreme Court action/inactions this summer, the ramifications will be huge and in many ways unanticipated until ALL STATE AND FEDERAL laws agree with hetero marriages, and even then, each state has differences in what is marriage, and what happens when a marriage ends – either though annulment (an interesting concept for us gays), divorce, or death – both of which have federal and state influence. so, if you haven’t lost it all in the bubble-burst or super storm sandy, give me a shout ! I might be your man ; )
So I have never been In a long term gay relationship, but I do think that monogamy is a good thing. because unless both people agree to have a open relationship, you are just going to case your self unwanted drama as mac pointed out with the new rights of being able to take half, there will be a quick paradigm shift or couples will do pre-nups.
Maybe I am a hopeless romantic/or naive thinking that there is a perfect guy out there for me who is interested in only me… I will find you one day…
gay marriage = bullshit, plain and simple. There is no such thing as monogamy in a gay relationship. You would have to stay away from clubs, sex sites, and going out with gay couples and gay friends because the temptation is always there. When hetero men go out together as friends, they usually do straight things and are not attracted to the same sex. When gay men go out “with the guys” its usually other gay males, the temptation is always there.
Its the nature of the male animal to want to “spread his seed” it has to be like that because the future of the human race depends on it. It takes one man to impregnate 100’s of women, but a women can only have (usually) one baby at a time and that takes 9 months. Civilized man has stifled that instinct with religious ceremony and beliefs.
The gay community wants equal rightsm, but I am damn sure monogamy is not part of the equation.
This article pretty much sums up where I have come to in my thinking after 30 years of being aware of my sexuality as a gay male and going from wanting a “knight in shining armor” to sweep me off my feet to simply being comfortable in my shoes and enjoying my sexual preference and the relative freedoms it gives me in my sex life over most heterosexuals who try to conform to the mould. Although I still long for a close relationship with one main partner, I now find myself actively seeking out guys who are open to a NON-monogamous relationship structure, at least to some degree. I have gotten to the point where I bring it up early on when I’m first getting to know them, not as a requirement that we do things with other guys but that they are at least open to the idea of including other partners from time to time, especially as the relationship matures. I for one am not particaularly interested in marriage, I don’t want the government or church sticking their nose in my personal life thankyou; but I do understand that there are members of our community who want that. Hopefully we can all have the freedom to pursue the type of relationships we desire without discrimination or disadvantage.
I think the whole “gay marriage” thing was snapped up too quickly by the gay culture. It was as if we were hetero-wannabes and the politicians and gay militants wanted to “throw us a bone” or “win that one” for us. Did they not realize that the vast portion of America more closely resembles the people on Jerry Springer than it does us? Did they not realize there would be an ignorant backlash and subsequent rude battle in which we stood to lose it all? It was too early to have the mid- and lower points of the bell curve weigh in on this, and it cost us. Further: think about your own life. Haven’t you felt you were different? Haven’t you wondered what the reason for that might be? Haven’t you fought to find your own way, to forge your own path? My answer is, you were “made different” to “be different.” And therefore, in a way, the pining for the white picket fence and minivan lifestyle is totally inappropriate. Straight marriage is not something to be coveted or copied, that’s a cop-out. It’s taking the obvious path, the one we’ve seen modeled for us (sometimes quite badly!) by the mainstream culture. To put it bluntly: we are better than that. We need equality, to be sure. But by our own models and standards.
I see your point accept u make it seem like we as gay men need to accept this new idea of open marriage. That’s not something new. Heterosexuals need to accept that same idea as its not unique to the gay community.
I completely agree with you david
At my age and being someone that had a 20+ year commitment with my soul mate, I have to agree that even tho the marriage right should be there the typical gay man such as myself or my passed lover didn’t go thru the relationship without atleast 1 outside of the relationship sexual affair. Those affairs really almost ended things between us but we did work things out which is our blessing because we truly loved each other-the gay man has to realize that there is fulfillment in a sexual affair but seldom is there real love–its just called lust. Equality in marriage I believe will increase the monogamous status in gay couples.
I consider the gay marriage issue to be a legal/governmental one only. My partner and I were together longer than both my parents marriages (to each other, as well as subsequent marriages), as well as those of all three of my siblings and both of his. Yet, the legal documents we had to draw to protect each other from our respective families in the event of death (he died of cancer) still didn’t stop his family from filing a lawsuit attempting to claim half our assets. This would not have happened if we had been allowed to marry.
The aspect of the morals and values of a marriage (monogamy, open, etc.) are not the point in my opinion; that is up to the individual partners. The point is the government shouldn’t be able to decide that any one relationship between 2 consenting adults is legally less legitimate as another one.
“But so many people I’ve spoken to are looking to enter into a relationship full of those heterosexual ideals that I believe are almost impossible to achieve in a homosexual relationship.”
If homosexual monogamy is almost impossible, why the push to dumb down marriage by un-defining it to include “gay marriage”? Is the concept of adultery supposed to vanish?
I’m one of those rogue gay men who doesn’t support adultery or “gay marriage.” I consider “gay marriage” a mockery of traditional marriage, and a trophy item for gays who seek self-acceptance by imposing their promiscuity on an increasingly decadent society.
There is no right of a minority to un-define marriage, in my opinion. If there is, then fathers can “marry” their daughters, and mothers can “marry” their sons. Why not be honest? The Statist goal is the “anything goes” sexuality that preceded Old Testament Judaism. That societies that championed pagan carnality are in the dustbin of history. In my opinion, many the U.S. thing that taking that course is cool, hot, edgy.
This is a country that just voted to commit economic and fiscal suicide, to become Greece. It’s not surprising that the same low-information Statists are ready to weaken the institution of marriage, the basic building block of society, into meaninglessness.
This sounds more like “if you can’t beat ’em, join ’em” to me than anything else. It’s like the argument being made about oxytocin levels and why men can’t be monogamous because they’re running low on the stuff. I think marriage, whether between a man and a woman, or a man and a man, should remain just that way: between the two people involved. Trying to bring another person in (albeit for a one time encounter) is just greedy, and trying to justify it seems slimy. I am definitely not on the site for the articles, but if you’re on A4A specifically looking for anything other than a warm body to rub against for a little while, you cray.
Many points of discussion elicited here, so I will contribute to just a few. First, the idea that monogamy and marriage are heterosexual values being brought into and incorporated into the modern construct of homosexual relationships, and one day many hope, marriage. As a man of logic and science myself, it seems perfectly logical to limit the number of sexual partners (for obvious reasons), remain monogamous over time (build a sense of investment in the relationship over time), and expect, particularly on the social level, to be treated as equal to our heterosexual counterparts. Many psychologists have previously demonstrated both homosexuality and monogamy to be behavioral attributes of hundreds of higher animals (monogamy displayed in penguins, dolphins, etc., heterosexuality displayed in higher primates, rodents, etc.) So monogamy and homosexuality, as far as I’m aware, are both qualities observed in higher animals, and not just in one sexual orientation.
Next, the idea that “a stiff dick has no conscience.” This may be partially true, but I would venture to claim the same of females. I have met a fair amount of females whose sex drive rivals those of the horniest gay men I’ve encountered. So unless you’re prepared to bust out some statistics, I would say chances are that males and females of all sexual orientations are equally as horny, and thus one sexual orientation is not considerably hornier than the other.
Finally, the idea that gay men wanting to be married is a straight fantasy. Yes, its true–if gay marriage passes, so does gay divorce, but isn’t that just human nature? If its meant to work it does, and if its not, it doesn’t. I stand behind the viewpoint that the entirety of the human condition(gay, bi, straight, other labels) is a constant power struggle to be loved and to find acceptance in this strange and off-putting world. Marriage between any two (or more) individuals of any background set in any society within any culture is viewed as a commitment to share some component(s) of their lives between or among those individuals taking part in that ceremony. Once again, it is an attempt for love and acceptance, something that everybody seeks.
Speaking in a very subjective point of view. This bolg posting is a joke of you ask me. You speak of a small group of guy men who choose to socially accept that monogamy dose not work for them. Even the idea of gender and that men are “pigs” is something that can been socially constructed. I believe people in the gay community do believe in monogamy or else no one would be out there fighting for it. Also most of your statement or lack of knowledge opinions lack the statistics to back it up. I have a degree in sociology and I can teach a whole lesson on this subject. Please post on things you have knowledge over and don’t miss lead people with your lack of research
im married to the same sex and i love it. let’s me stick my nose up towards bigots. i have been married for a few years and i am proud to be married, nor do i feel threatened. once u get married they cannot take that away. don’t believe the hype. once u get married u can sue the government if they even try to void it, and trust me they don’t want that. now just because u get married doesn’t mean it will all be peaches and cream. i will be divorced from my first husband in exactly 12 more days and i will get married to my new love in about 30 days, this time for good. i simply married the wrong man the first time. i would highly recommend gay marriage to anyone. it give u a feeling of pride and makes u treat your mate better. for any one having doubt, screw with others say they do not walk in your shoes or pay your bills and until they do their opinions are moot. no body is gonna take away any right, don’t be scared just go for it. i cannot wait till my new marriage begins i love him with all my heart and although it is not perfect, it beats living my life alone. who wants to gain success without someone who really loves u for u to share it with. do what ever makes you happy. the worse case scenario is you get a divorce like all the rest. follow your heart and don’t let others tell u what is right for u. GAY MARRIAGE IS NOT DOOMED I’M SURE THAT THE PERSON WHO SAID THAT IS PROBABLY NOT MARRIED AND UNLESS U R MARRIED YOUR OPINION IS JUST THAT, YOURS ALONE. I BET U WOULD GIVE ANYTHING TO HAVE SOMEONE LOVE U AND WANT TO MARRY YOU, OTHERWISE YOU WOULD NOT BE SO NEGATIVE ABOUT IT.
TRY IT, U MIGHT JUST LIKE IT.
NO OFFENSE TO ANYONE, BUT I’M SICK OF NEGATIVITY FROM THOSE WHO REALLY JUST DON’T MATTER ANYWAY. P.S. IF THERE ARE ANY TYPOS TRUST ME I KNOW HOW TO SPELL IM JUST BEING LAZY I USUALLY DONT DEVOTE TIME TO BLOGS OF ANY SORT BUT HAD TO. AND IF U R WONDERING WHAT IM DOING ON ADAM, IM NOT DEAD AND THEY DO HAVE GREAT MODELS TO LOOK AT.
Your logic is flawed which invalidates this post.
For example, why is monogamy a heterosexual value? The logic is flawed. A gay man is a type of man like a straight men is a type of men, so if gay men are less likely to be monogamous due to being men, wouldn’t that mean that straight men are less likely to be faithful, so wouldn’t that mean what makes it not a homosexual value would also make it not a heterosexual value thereby negating the entire premise of the article(bringing heterosexual values into a homosexual relationship?).
If your main point seems to be that homosexual relationships are different than heterosexual relationships where this behavior is predicated, bracketed by, or based in the behavior of men where a heterosexual relationship has a man in it; therefore, the behavior would be the same thus contradicting his claim there are fundamental differences. Since the post contradicts itself, we can logically surmise that it is false…
Until Bigamy or Polygamy (Polyandry?) are allowed for us, we’ll *all* be monogamous if we get married.
When married straight men visit a strip club, a house of ill repute, have an affair with their secretary, or even, in past times, take on a set of concubines – they are still monogamous: They married one person. The others were ‘extramarital.’
Some straight relationships expect it, some survive it, some don’t. For *any* marriage to work, its needed that both partners are honest, have realistic expectations, and are willing to improve themselves and forgive the others when they don’t live up to the expectations – wherever those where set.
Hello this the first time im posting please forgive the terrible spelling and lake puctuation.
I agree with the fact that men are pigs gay straight bi whatever see the thing is men have always been that way. And women as well the only diference is that men were physicaly stronger andin the times when commited relationships were really first starting men had control of everything and that includes the women so when social standards were formed gand alot of cutures where men ruled they created the harem. Men are just pigs my whole ththing with this topic is ur calling monogamy a hetero ideal but i disagree i believe it is a human ideal i have never had a problem with staying commited or monogamus its not so dificult to stay out of a relationship if u dontwant that kind of thing. Also u can talk about what ever rules or lines u dont want crossed woth your partner if u want to have it open then thata fine ppl have have swingin since man first discovered what sex was lol but to say that commitment and monogamy are hetero values is wrong i do agree with quiet abit of what u say such as needing to revamp our thinking but it should introspective rather than extrovert we need to work on coming closer togerther and respecting eachother insted of putfing up lables and hungups and segregating ourselve into ever smaller parts we will never stand tall and pround unless we become a single body with many steong and friendly voices
Scott Williams,
“Using an undeniable religious term for a legal union directly violates the first amendment.”
Marriage predates Christianity, and has existed as a legal union in virtually ALL cultures but as a religious union in only some. How is marriage an “undeniable religious term?” I can’t see how you could deny that it’s NOT an exclusively religious term.
One more point. Men and women cheat its terrible but true. If uyou are with simeone then be with them if u cheat then u fucked up and u better hope u guys can work out but a commited relationship takes work just anything else worth having. So find someone whos baggage goes with yours and just love them grow together and become a single entity of love that and life. We may not be able to reproduce together but the breeders have made plenty of extra that need loving homes
Its call natures birth control
You do a great job of making the opposition’s arguement, but like them your reasoning is flawed. Your only stance against gay marriage is because SOME of us like to stray? With a heterosexual divorce rate hoovering at 60%–SERIOUSLY? And I’m on this site because I am single and not ready to marry yet.
But until I am, let’s get some things “straight:”
-Marriage is NOT a religous issue- it’s a LEGAL one! If it were only religion, why has every society who practices marriage attached legal rights and privileges to it? I was an HIV case manager back before there were any drugs to directly combat HIV. When my clients were suffering at home their lovers took care of them without pause. When my clients went to the hospital for complications, their lovers weren’t allowed to see them-FAMILY ONLY. After they died, the same family that shunned them, quickly snapped up their bank accounts and possessions leaving the surviving gay partner destitute and emotionally broken. In some cases the surviving partner wasn’t even allowed to the funeral. In others they weren’t recognized as they sat alone and sobbing in the back of the church.
When an ex lover of mine was murdered while briefly in jail, I had to find out from his friend. His family wouldn’t even tell me where the funeral was and told me to keep away. Plus, I wasn’t entitled to any of the settlement money, his family, who hated the fact he was gay, got it all!
Marriage gives partners equal rights to property, tax deductions, and finances.
-MEN ARE MEN! Heterosexual men are no less horny than gay men. Too many extramaritial affairs have hit the headlines lately, and that’s just the famous people. How many of us have heterosexual girl-friends whose husbands have fooled around on them? Conversely, there are heterosexual “swinger” clubs for happily married heterosexuals who get “bored.” There are also successful and long-term OPEN gay relationships. I knew a couple who was in an open and happy same-sex relationship for 10 years (longer than many hetero marriages). Their relationship ended because one partner died.
-There are MONOGAMOUS gay men! I am from the South, I knew so many couples who had been dedicated to each other exclusively, for 20+ years. I used to help a gay couple here in San Francisco that had been together for 50 FAITHFUL years. One problem is that we don’t have the defined relationship markers that heteros have. Example-boy-friend/girl-friend, fiance/e, and finally husband and wife. Without these markers, we slip from trick, to fuck buddy, to partners(lovers back in my day), without anything other than time to differentiate. THIS (and poor communication about the relationship’s status) contributes to gays not being monogamous.
Just as not all heterosexuals are not suited for marriage, neither are all homosexuals. But DAMNIT, we deserve the right to choose and when choosen, stand under the FULL and EQUAL protection of the law!
Monogamy isn’t a heterosexual value, it’s a person-by-person one so dont act like gays are selling out by wanting rights. More fundamentally, even if you’re married you can still have sex with people outside the relationship, so this argument has no bearing on the actual subject. Don’t lump all gay men together as pigs – you could argue that most gay men who use a4a are pigs, but fortunately a lot of gay men don’t use this site or any equivalent. If you’re going to argue against marriage, it should that all marriage should be dissolved as a legal institution, as it is bias against polyamorists (once again, you can have sex with whoever you want when you’re married. The only real requirement is emotional love – not sexual loyalty). This would require a complete upheaval of cultural definitions of relationship, family structure, and emotional bonding. So that probably won’t be happening in the near future.
It was an interesting point, but next time you make a statement as bold as ‘most men are pigs’ either have numbers to call on or a more thorough logical defense.
As a final aside, the promiscuity observed in gay culture is likely a result of the fact our relationships were not tolerated or accepted, thus making casual encounters our safest sexual release. With the AIDS epidemic and increasing acceptance of homosexual couples, the safe release many now be sexual loyalty. It would not be shocking if there is an observed shift from promiscuous to monogamous behavior based only on self-preservation tactics.
Ok I am a gay male and have had monogamous relationships before and not because that’s the “heterosexual” thing to do but if not because I believe that marriage and relationships are when two people become one and share a life and soul. The act of marriage has historically been the act of two people coming together. Now if people want to go out and sleep with every guy that winks at them or smiles then that’s what’s giving gay marriage a bad image. Also to say monogamous relationship a”heterosexual” thing is like saying marriage is a “Christianity” thing and unless we go to church and believe in the church we shouldn’t get married. To be married and sleep around is just another reason why people shouldn’t get married. It doesn’t matter who gets married as long as it is only two people who care about eacother and want to be together forever and if you don’t want that then be single and stop saying generalized statements
Equality, as in the right to get married, has nothing to do with what each and every hetero or homosexual adult couple decides to do in and out of their bed.
We deserve the right to attempt any form of marriage relationship we please. I have seen hetero and homosexual committed and married couples enjoy extramarital fun and come back to their committed relationship.
We do not need to have our marriages validated by anyone but the people involved in each union. And if we examine the sexual dysfunction that is prevalent in hetero marriages of the past, we owe it to ourselves to continue to be open about our sexuality and talk about our desires and set forth our own idea of marriage and committed unions.
I am not endorsing secretive cheating and unprotected sex, I only want each couple to feel that they can dictate what their marriage is for themselves and not measure it to hetero marriage.
This argument in the courts and politics is about federal recognition of our unions, nothing to do with faith based morality or faith based ideas of marriage. Unless the couple involved intends that.
monogamy is over rated-left over from child bearing couples & regions control! Animals rarely observe monogamous unions! monogamy causes more heartbreak & disagreements’ form of legalized selfishness-Think about it!
Thank you everybody for the lively discussion and input. For the most part, you’ve proven my points (even while disagreeing). I think we all have given ourselves plenty to think about. This conversation isn’t over, but we will need to go on to the next topic in this series which many of you have chosen: What the benefits and drawbacks are to having legal status as a couple. I may even make some of you happy by providing some statistics if they’re out there.
-DB-
Given the opening sentence, I was expecting an entirely different article. As such, the following comments are possibly not as relevant but which I still feed need to be made.
I think “gay marriage” is a losing proposition, at a nationwide level anyway: There are simply too many people opposed to the idea, too many people convinced that we are corrupting the concept of the “sacred institution.”
Instead I feel strongly that we need to work at redefining “civil union” and “domestic partnership” so that they can carry the same legal weight as marriage relative to property, power of attorney, and so on.
The real bugaboo seems to be the very term “marriage;” move on to something else that doesn’t press the same buttons and I believe we’ll finally get somewhere.
I’m definitely with Steve (and the other Stev)e on this: my concerns are with EQUAL RIGHTS AND TREATMENT UNDER THE LAW.
If the rest of you boys want to dither about “caving to a heteronormative model” or inveigh against the “religious nature” (B.S.) of an “essentially fraudulent practice,” or mind-fuck around the semantics, I’ll be happy to give you all the space you need. Outside. On the playground. With Peter Pan and the rest of the lost “bois.”
“Equal marriage” (“marriage equality,” or “gay marriage” or whatever the fuck we’re calling it this season) is about EQUAL RIGHTS AND TREATMENT UNDER THE LAW. Like it or not, marriage is a CIVIL contract, which may or may NOT have a religious rite attached.
Focus: “equal rights and responsibilities for all.” Unless it’s the RESPONSIBILITIES part that many seem to balk at. Learning to deal with THOSE as individuals (let alone as part of “a couple”) seems to be a problem for some.
And if that harshes your vibes, so be it, but please stop hauling your individual emotional baggage carts onto the path of progress – it blocks things JUST as effectively as a cadre of well-moneyed hate group spokebigots charging toward yet another lazy reporter.
And it’s considerably shriller.
I agree that the goal is equality under the law. Nothing less! Who cares what it is called. I think if the term “marriage” is not used, it will probably have considerably less opposition and better acceptance in society. I don’t think most people really give a rat’s behind what anyone’s living arrangements are as long as they’re not forced to change their own beliefs. The main opposition has come from using a term that has had a specific meaning for centuries. This is new territory for our society. So why not just call it something else, civil unions, partnerships, etc. Heck, if I had it my way, Government would not be involved in marriage at all but would be left to religious institutions. Government would ONLY recognize civil unions or partnerships. And if anyone wanted a “marriage” they can go to church to get one just like they go to churches to get baptisms, confirmations, bar mitzvahs, whatever. But that’s not the reality. Just create a civil union with all the same benefits/responsibilities of marriage. And for those that are not suited to that, then don’t get into a civil union or marriage, whether heterosexual or homosexual.
With regards to the notion that monogamy/marriage is a heterosexual value and all men are pigs, etc. Well, those statements are just too stupid to merit a response.
I absolutely disagree with everything you’ve said! And I find it repulsive that so many people agree with this! I am a young gay person and I have been in my fair share of relationships and in none of them have I ever cheated on any of my partners! Nor have I been cheated on! My relationships have ended because I’m an army brat and my parents move every few years. Monogamy is not only for straight people! When I find someone worth marrying I’m going to WANT to be manogomous with him! Marriage is two people becoming one. When is it ever ok to bring someone else in to you and your partners bed? The answer is NEVER! If what you all are saying and agreeing on is true, there’s no hope for gay marriage in the country. Just like in elementary school when a few bad kids ruin something good for all the other good kids and what ever it was gets taken away because of some douche bags! Grow up you guys. Fall in love! You shouldn’t want to stray from love! How/why would you throw away love for nothing?
If you’re going to hook up with every Tom, Dick and Harry any time you want, what’s the point of being in a relationship? No one with any common sense will stand for you.
hell so-called st8 men can’t keep their dicks in their pants…what makes you think gays will….all sluts anyway…divorce rate will be higher for you sluts that want a quickie and then feel sorry that it happened. get caught and end up paying galamony.
Jim Crow Separate-but-equal, I don’t think anything about Jim Crow was such a thing. Black were kept separate,but has never been treated as equal…
From a Black man
I suppose it depends on the individual and individual relationships. My partner and I were monogamous for 32 years. I had no interest in bedding down with anyone else. Unless I’m emotionally satisfied with sex, I don’t want it. It takes a bond for me to experience emotional satisfaction.
When ideas of “gay marriage” arose many years ago, we discussed it…and decided we didn’t need a piece of paper to verify we loved one another. Financial aspects were handled through wills.
Benefits of marriage: When he became seriously ill, I had to pass myself off as his cousin to get medical info., make hospital visits and claim his body from the morgue. A legal marriage would have avoided that.
His family knew our commitment to one another…and let me make funeral arrangements as I saw fit…and were very, very supportive of me at the worst time in my life. One of his sisters even stayed with me for a month….handling everyday things that I was just too depressed to deal with.
Everyone is different. Relationships will reflect that.